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I'm Done Looking For A Method To Lower Body Fat Without Caloric Restriction
- Thread starter Ron J
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- #121
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- May 8, 2017
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PPARgamma has effects reminiscent of Cortisol in adipocytes. It potentiates insulin and causes fat gain, while lowering inflammation.
In effect, PPARgamma is a major short-term PUFA antagonist, working through lipogenesis.
However if you administer either Cortisol or PPARgamma strong agonist during fasting, lipolysis actually increases. PPARgamma in fact increases lipolysis always but stimulates NEFA uptake and the net balance is fat gain (too many studies to link; see diabetes resources; e.g.: PPARgamma agonism increases rat adipose tissue lipolysis, expression of glyceride lipases, and the response of lipolysis to hormonal control. - PubMed - NCBI be careful when you read this, it's mainly a lipogenesis promoter)
In general on a RP-like diet, you have to limit Cortisol and PPARgamma activation, because constant carb and protein intake leads to insulin all day.
(There were some studies that showed that actually IGF-1 can lower 11b-HSD in tissues, which is a point in favor of milk, despite what I wrote earlier; so if you do well on milk, this can be part of the reason; although exogenous IGF-1 is suboptimal in other ways, and certainly no replacement for GH, so it's hard to say the net effect imo)
Conversely, IF lowers insulin, and Cortisol and PPARgamma become slightly fat burning, although I'm convinced it's mostly the Growth Hormone that gives its benefits, due to its repartitioning effects, and even increased Norepinephrine (since better circadian rhythm leads to amplified NAD production, which means higher SIRT1 and higher dopamine->norepinephrine in the morning, even without exercise; people emulate this already with caffeine, though).
This whole thing ties into inflammation and obesity, since endotoxin, inflammation, and macrophage action are thought to drive waist size and metabolic problems - both 11b-HSD for Cortisol and PPARgamma increase in adipose tissue in obesity to deal with the inflammation, through increasing lipogenesis.
So what I just described actually better fits other substances such as Abscissic Acid and some others mentioned and promoted on the forum, that work through PPARgamma. I think people even viewed PPARgamma in a positive light... this is deceptive. Glycine is only a problem circumstantially. Much like Vitamin A, which also affects weight loss.
[If you're reading this and confused by these statements and some of Cortisol's associations with insulin resistance, that's because it's species-specific and fat depot-specific and dose-dependent and dependent on food intake, the latter being the only one I described above - hopelessly confused; start here: Glucocorticoids Fail to Cause Insulin Resistance in Human Subcutaneous Adipose Tissue In Vivo | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic ]
- #122
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Does your source mention the amount of glycine?
- #123
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- #124
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- #125
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[But you could run into a completely different problem, which is that free Glycine can combine with random substances in your food...]
- #126
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@Terma I'll check it out. Thanks for all the advice.
- #127
Most practical advice in 6 pages of...?Just do sprints. Nothing has helped me lose body fat diet-wise, but sprints really burns the bodyfat off quickly and easily. Run as fast as you can for 30 seconds, once a day, 6x a week. It tricks your body into thinking that you're being chanced by animals and burns fat all day as a survival mechanism. It decreases cortisol and increases androgens.
- #128
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Just do sprints. Nothing has helped me lose body fat diet-wise, but sprints really burns the bodyfat off quickly and easily. Run as fast as you can for 30 seconds, once a day, 6x a week. It tricks your body into thinking that you're being chanced by animals and burns fat all day as a survival mechanism. It decreases cortisol and increases androgens.
You do just one 30 second sprint a day? Any other exercise?
- #129
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yes the verb is ren-nen, like "kidneys"/renal glands, as oppose to adrenalJust do sprints. Nothing has helped me lose body fat diet-wise, but sprints really burns the bodyfat off quickly and easily. Run as fast as you can for 30 seconds, once a day, 6x a week. It tricks your body into thinking that you're being chanced by animals and burns fat all day as a survival mechanism. It decreases cortisol and increases androgens.
edit: oppose is an imperfect word choice but not unuseful in this contex
- #130
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Not really. I walk my dog and go along with my day. That's about it. I've lost inches of bodyfat in the 3 weeks I've been doing it so far.You do just one 30 second sprint a day? Any other exercise?
- #131
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If the goal is fat loss and someone feels great on a vlfd, why not stick to it. Another member on the forum, Tyw and a few others, do very good on a vlfd and they're going to stick to it no matter what their physique goals are. I think someone should experiment until they feel what macros works for them and then stick to it. Vlfd has a good track record of healing a bunch of people. Walter Kempner for example with the rice diet. But there was still around 20% of people that got worse on his diet. So I'm not saying a vlfd will/should work for everyone.Dude just want to say that through your explanations of what happens down the electron transport chain in reguards to each of the substrates on topic in the thread: https://raypeatforum.com/community/...e-and-spatial-memory.25064/page-3#post-360765
I have become more convinced of the efficacy for vlf over a more balanced diet for rehabilitating a compromised metabolism.It makes sense now as to why it works while eating sufficient calories to prevent an energy deficit.
So we can safely say that vlf is best for rehabbing METABOLISM but it's use should not be geared towards FAT LOSS?
Would it make more sense that once fat loss ensues while on vlf that this is a sign you have raised metabolism and it would be a good idea to methodically increase calories to stop weightloss in order to maintain new found metabolism? Perhaps after eating this calorie level for awhile, you could think about a moderate deficit on a balanced macro ratio, consisting mainly of glucose (starch) and saturated fats? This should hypothetically prevent the cells from being flooded with too much energy while transitioning out of a deficit back to normal calories and preserve the metabolism restored by vlf prior to deficit, does this sound like a good layout for implementing EACH dieting strategy?
It comes down to the individual again. I like to eat fruit because I like the taste of it. If I didn't, I'd stick to starch. I think fructose has benefits over glucose, such as increasing CO2 production more, stimulating pyruvate dehydrogenase, etc. So I wouldn't say what (starch/fruit) should be the primary source, because maybe someone does really well eating mostly fruits and protein, instead of starches and protein. Not fruit nor starch should pose a problem when calories are eaten to the body's demand.@Salmonamb I should also add/pose the suggestion that starch should be the primary fuel source on vlf and fruit and fructose only enough to represent micros? This sound good?
- #132
I consciously eat more calories on my workout days and limit fat intake on these days. In a calorie surplus your body stores exogenous fat but humans aren't great at converting carbs to fat via DNL. I've found that cycling macros in this way reduces the chronic craving for fat (especially when in a caloric deficit). Up until now I've not been actively trying to lose fat.
I think it's possible to raise metabolism by eating high carb low fat but I think it's difficult to lose body fat while also raising metabolism. The leaner you are the more difficult it would be. I believe raising metabolism is a worthwhile activity but for most it will involve some weight/fat gain. This is not undesirable in the long term if you can raise your metabolism and improve wellbeing from a previous calorie restriction state.
- #133
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When I eat very low fat I can't satisfy my appetite. I eat even with food in my stomach and neither sugar, starch nor protein will take the edge off. I've been experimenting with this and it seems it doesn't take much fat to take the edge off. Maybe I would adjust to very low fat in time, but my feeling is that it's not suited to me. I'm a big guy though (6'4, 230lbs @ 28% BF) and I eat more food than most.I consciously eat more calories on my workout days and limit fat intake on these days. In a calorie surplus your body stores exogenous fat but humans aren't great at converting carbs to fat via DNL. I've found that cycling macros in this way reduces the chronic craving for fat (especially when in a caloric deficit). Up until now I've not been actively trying to lose fat.
I think it's possible to raise metabolism by eating high carb low fat but I think it's difficult to lose body fat while also raising metabolism. The leaner you are the more difficult it would be. I believe raising metabolism is a worthwhile activity but for most it will involve some weight/fat gain. This is not undesirable in the long term if you can raise your metabolism and improve wellbeing from a previous calorie restriction state.
How often do you eat oysters? I have found that my appetite is usually quite ravenous when going low fat which often cause me to eat too much starches to feel satisfied. But this only happens when my selenium, and especially zinc/copper is low in my diet. I have found that as long as I keep enough oysters/zinc in my diet, my appetite on a low fat is very satisfied without having to eat a bunch of heavy starches to feel satisfied. I am convinced of this for myself and others have noticed this as well on the forum. I usually have to eat oysters 1-2 times per week at least for to feel satisfied, and have enough protein in the diet (at least 100 grams). I have zero cravings for fatty foods when I do this. Also coffee for the b vitamins helps with this as well. Low fat an take some time depending on your liver health/heling your liver, which low fat should help with along with Vitamin K2 and caffeine.
- #134
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- Jun 29, 2017
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When I eat very low fat I can't satisfy my appetite. I eat even with food in my stomach and neither sugar, starch nor protein will take the edge off. I've been experimenting with this and it seems it doesn't take much fat to take the edge off. Maybe I would adjust to very low fat in time, but my feeling is that it's not suited to me. I'm a big guy though (6'4, 230lbs @ 28% BF) and I eat more food than most.I consciously eat more calories on my workout days and limit fat intake on these days. In a calorie surplus your body stores exogenous fat but humans aren't great at converting carbs to fat via DNL. I've found that cycling macros in this way reduces the chronic craving for fat (especially when in a caloric deficit). Up until now I've not been actively trying to lose fat.
I think it's possible to raise metabolism by eating high carb low fat but I think it's difficult to lose body fat while also raising metabolism. The leaner you are the more difficult it would be. I believe raising metabolism is a worthwhile activity but for most it will involve some weight/fat gain. This is not undesirable in the long term if you can raise your metabolism and improve wellbeing from a previous calorie restriction state.
0.3g of fat per lb of lean mass is all you need:
Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation. - PubMed - NCBI
Any less would be considered vlf.
DNL is directly stimulated by over eating on a high fructose diet:
Role of Dietary Fructose and Hepatic De Novo Lipogenesis in Fatty Liver Disease. - PubMed - NCBI
Smaller bodies burn less calories than big bodies, reguardless of tissue composition (fat or muscle). If you're very lean and want to increase metabolism without fat gain more than likely this means you have to increase muscle mass. If you're overweight, you already have a high metabolism, it's just not a highly wasteful one.
A highly muscular person will burn more calories than a person who is the same mass but with a higher bodyfat percentage because muscle burns more calories per pound than fat. Muscle burns about 50cals per lb per day and fat burns about 20.
Edit: I suppose not completely reguardless of body composition lol but for the most part the general rule is big body burns more than little.
- #135
How often do you eat oysters? I have found that my appetite is usually quite ravenous when going low fat which often cause me to eat too much starches to feel satisfied. But this only happens when my selenium, and especially zinc/copper is low in my diet. I have found that as long as I keep enough oysters/zinc in my diet, my appetite on a low fat is very satisfied without having to eat a bunch of heavy starches to feel satisfied. I am convinced of this for myself and others have noticed this as well on the forum. I usually have to eat oysters 1-2 times per week at least for to feel satisfied, and have enough protein in the diet (at least 100 grams). I have zero cravings for fatty foods when I do this. Also coffee for the b vitamins helps with this as well. Low fat an take some time depending on your liver health/heling your liver, which low fat should help with along with Vitamin K2 and caffeine.
About a dozen huge Oysters once a week and usually a couple of hundred grams of liver once a week. The oysters are very satisfying but I bake them with cheese and bacon so there's fat with them. Like I said it doesn't take much fat to take the edge off (50g of cheese will do it). It's only when I go really low fat that I notice I'm ravenous. I also eat a lot of meat (lean beef and gelatine) - over 150g protein per day. Lean protein and starch fills me up but doesn't satisfy me (it's a really odd feeling being full and still hungry).
I don't really get cravings for fatty foods but I know eating some fat will stop me feeling unsatisfied. I think everyone is slightly different in this respect. The satiation happens pretty quickly (within 30-60 mins) and I wonder whether the mouth is the point where the fat is registered rather than the stomach or digestive tract.
- #136
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- Jan 9, 2018
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- 50
Hello
I wanted to create a calorie deficit by increasing my metabolism on a high calorie diet, but so far it has been a failure, or I'm eating too much. Aspirin as discussed here, and 1,200mg daily of caffeine(aside from many other things that ramp up my metabolism/thyroid) was a failure as well. My only option is to lower calories.
Also, I think implementing this, with this would make it quite safe.
I don't add fats to anything even butter anymore, the raw milk I have in my coffee has fat, so do the eggs and meat I have only small portions. I get additive free skim ricotta (hate cottage cheese) cook in non stick pan and do use coconut oil to cook occasionally for stir fry. Until I cut down the fats, cut back hard cheese, using only the saturated fats in the food I was unable to cut up- I am an experienced lifter. No longer add fats to potatoes, mushrooms etc. And minimized the lifters sacred food chicken. I was new to Peating in Jan coming off a fat free vegan diet which had been advised by a heart doc, and desperate for solutions. Gained fat at first not cool. This took a couple of months, it worked. Not too scientific but hope it helps someoneHello
I wanted to create a calorie deficit by increasing my metabolism on a high calorie diet, but so far it has been a failure, or I'm eating too much. Aspirin as discussed here, and 1,200mg daily of caffeine(aside from many other things that ramp up my metabolism/thyroid) was a failure as well. My only option is to lower calories.
Also, I think implementing this, with this would make it quite safe.
- #137
0.3g of fat per lb of lean mass is all you need:Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation. - PubMed - NCBI
Any less would be considered vlf.
DNL is directly stimulated by over eating on a high fructose diet:
Role of Dietary Fructose and Hepatic De Novo Lipogenesis in Fatty Liver Disease. - PubMed - NCBI
Smaller bodies burn less calories than big bodies, reguardless of tissue composition (fat or muscle). If you're very lean and want to increase metabolism without fat gain more than likely this means you have to increase muscle mass. If you're overweight, you already have a high metabolism, it's just not a highly wasteful one.
A highly muscular person will burn more calories than a person who is the same mass but with a higher bodyfat percentage because muscle burns more calories per pound than fat. Muscle burns about 50cals per lb per day and fat burns about 20.
Edit: I suppose not completely reguardless of body composition lol but for the most part the general rule is big body burns more than little.
Muscle mass also helps you look leaner, but as you know it's a slow process requiring consistent effort. As I approach 40, I've acknowledged I'm probably not going to put on much additional muscle mass without going on AAS. I'm more concerned about maintaining the mass I have and just dropping down to around 15% fat. I'll get there but I've spent the last 6-8 months just trying to bring my metabolism back up without stacking the fat back on.
A lot of people find this forum in a state of health that's less than ideal from chronic calorie restriction or from a diet that is less than ideal (fad diet or just full of PUFAs, legumes, etc). Raising metabolism from this state is more about returning it to a baseline rather than elevating to a state of an Olympic swimmer. A bigger body will burn more calories but so will a body that has a surplus of calories.
It's my understanding that here are 2 things that raises DNL in humans. A large oversupply of calories in the form of carbohydrate and very low fat over a prolonged period of time. Even under these conditions it is not very efficient (30% odd wasted in conversion) or significant (in most cases). In my view it's not something to be fretted about (it's not the cause of obesity as some people theorised).
A high calorie diet very low in fat with adequate protein (1-1.5g per kg lean mass) is in my view the best diet to raise metabolism while minimising fat gain. Unfortunately it makes some people feel miserable if done long term. I feel great for a couple of days and then it goes down hill. I really like the Lean Gains approach of cycling calories and macros ratios according to your workouts (3-4 per week). People always focus on the IF part of LG but the macro and calorie cycling is a piece of detail overlooked. LG doesn't pay attention to the quality of the macros either but that's pretty common among bodybuilders.
- #138
I was new to Peating in Jan coming off a fat free vegan diet which had been advised by a heart doc, and desperate for solutions. Gained fat at first not cool. This took a couple of months, it worked. Not too scientific but hope it helps someone
Hi Saraleah. What solutions were you looking for?
I'm just wondering what worked?
- #139
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- Jul 21, 2018
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For me personally very low fat (10g/day) works, I have 0 problems after months of not eating any fats ever. Though everybody is different.Muscle mass also helps you look leaner, but as you know it's a slow process requiring consistent effort. As I approach 40, I've acknowledged I'm probably not going to put on much additional muscle mass without going on AAS. I'm more concerned about maintaining the mass I have and just dropping down to around 15% fat. I'll get there but I've spent the last 6-8 months just trying to bring my metabolism back up without stacking the fat back on.A lot of people find this forum in a state of health that's less than ideal from chronic calorie restriction or from a diet that is less than ideal (fad diet or just full of PUFAs, legumes, etc). Raising metabolism from this state is more about returning it to a baseline rather than elevating to a state of an Olympic swimmer. A bigger body will burn more calories but so will a body that has a surplus of calories.
It's my understanding that here are 2 things that raises DNL in humans. A large oversupply of calories in the form of carbohydrate and very low fat over a prolonged period of time. Even under these conditions it is not very efficient (30% odd wasted in conversion) or significant (in most cases). In my view it's not something to be fretted about (it's not the cause of obesity as some people theorised).
A high calorie diet very low in fat with adequate protein (1-1.5g per kg lean mass) is in my view the best diet to raise metabolism while minimising fat gain. Unfortunately it makes some people feel miserable if done long term. I feel great for a couple of days and then it goes down hill. I really like the Lean Gains approach of cycling calories and macros ratios according to your workouts (3-4 per week). People always focus on the IF part of LG but the macro and calorie cycling is a piece of detail overlooked. LG doesn't pay attention to the quality of the macros either but that's pretty common among bodybuilders.
I personally believe that some people require more fats than others, similarly to the ayurvedic and traditional chinese medicine views and the 20th century views of the fast and slow oxidizers. These all emphasize the different macro needs for different people.
Myself I have always had a weak nervous system, I would fit the description of an ectomorph/slow oxidizer/sympathetic dominant etc. My digestion is not strong like that of others, also I need a lot of time to recover from doing things such as heavy squats compared to others. In addition to this I have thin joints/bones (6 inch wrist at 6'7 height), an ectomorph.
I don't know what you would describe yourself as? From the observations in my personal surrounding it usually seems the endomorphs usually fare better with more fats/proteins and the ecto's with less (my mother who is also an ecto fares a lot worse on fatty/protein foods while my dad, who has a more endo/meso build, thrives on it. Similarly my mother recovers slowly from intense exercise such as weightlifting while my dad recovers very quickly).
If I follow the exercise regimen tailored for myself (low stress on the CNS, low weight, higher volume), and my diet (carbs, 90-100g protein, as low fat as possible), I find myself able to maintain very low bodyfat (like 7%, literally no fat anywhere with veins all over my abs/legs etc), while feeling okay. While in the past I would have absolutely no chance at this eating a higher fat diet or doing very intense squats/bench press etc. It would be extremely stressful to try to get lean using the standard bodybuilding recommendations and usually plateaued aswell. Also sunlight is of huge value to me, I find I can eat less and feel the same when I am outdoors exposing my body to the sun a lot.
- #140
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Here comes a warning: please nobody light a match.doomsday warning about under eating and the deletrious effects of doing the slightest form of physical activity.
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